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The 5 Questions Podcast
Join us as we unlock real estate and business insights, one question at a time.
The 5 Questions Podcast
Win-Win Real Estate: How Sibtain and Insiyah Make Everyone Profitable
Sibtain and Insiyah share their journey from casual real estate investors to multifamily specialists, revealing how they've created accessible investment vehicles for both high-net-worth individuals and everyday investors.
• Started investing in real estate 20 years ago with single-family homes and condos, including international properties
• COVID served as a catalyst to transition from background interest to full-time multifamily investing
• Created Pragma Inc for larger investors ($500k+) and ExpandWealth Real Estate Fund for smaller investors
• Brought banking negotiation tactics to real estate, emphasizing detailed contracts and win-win relationships
• Apply educational background to ensure investors understand both benefits and risks
• Consider tenant profiles carefully when purchasing buildings, sometimes declining deals if existing tenants wouldn't fit their model
• Built systems around people (power teams), processes (methodical approaches), and technology (Monday.com, Excel models)
• Maintain a completely paperless operation for mobility and backup security
• Caution against DIY approaches to real estate without proper education
• Recommend either investing time in learning or partnering with experienced professionals
Connect with Sibtain and Insiyah:
www.expandwealthfund.com
If you need surgery, you're not going to watch a YouTube video and then try it yourself, right, but people tend to approach real estate that way.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the 5 Questions Podcast, where we unlock real estate and business insights one question at a time. Welcome to the 5 Questions Podcast. I am your host, mario Lamar. Our guests on today's show are a power couple, co-founders of Pragma Inc and Expand Wealth Real Estate Trust. With a combined background in education, psychology, finance and leadership, they are redefining what it means to build generational wealth through real estate. Welcome, insia and Sib Panju. Welcome to the show, guys.
Speaker 3:Hey, Mario Glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're excited to be here. Yeah, we're excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Okay, guys, the concept of the podcast is real simple Five questions, either about business or real estate, and we get straight to the point. You ready.
Speaker 1:We're ready?
Speaker 2:Okay, first question I have for you guys. Let's start at the beginning. How did your journey in real estate begin and what inspired you to co-found pragma Inc and then, uh, expand wealth? Uh, all together and any, uh, maybe. Uh, both of you can tag team on this question.
Speaker 3:Sounds good, sounds good. So, um, we started investing in real estate about 20 years ago. Um, you know, we were investing mainly in single family homes and things like that. Yeah, condos. Um, you know, we were investing mainly in single family homes and things like that, condos. Uh, we even invested, uh internationally, in dubai.
Speaker 3:Um, so we've been investing in real estate. We had a couple of rental properties as well and, um, what happened was, uh, that we had two kids, life got busy. I was working downtown and ncaa was working as well, and sort of the tipping point was COVID, where we actually had time and we were sort of gearing up to invest more in real estate. At that time, anyway, we sort of knew that real estate is the way to go with the passive income and the appreciation. And when COVID hit, it was sort of the catalyst where we started investing more and got more into the multifamily space and we went sort of all in on that. And even before COVID, we were already educating ourselves and networking on the multifamily space, and I'll let Ancia sort of continue and add to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean he did cover a lot of it. It has been something that's always been a part of our lives, but always in the background, and I think Siv, I would have to say, was a lot more passionate about real estate, so he was the driving force behind it. I got my real estate license I don't know, maybe like 15 years ago now, and so you know, we were in, we're dabbling into real estate, but from different angles and I think, yeah, like you said, covid was was what brought it from the background right into the foreground and it became what was leading us now and then the job sort of faded out.
Speaker 2:That's. That's a great, great story and great life journey. And it starts like that. I speak to a lot of people and sometimes in a couple, let's say you're doing it together. It's always one that leads and then the other one follows with the years. Let me ask you because in my question we named two companies, so Pragma Inc and Expand Wealth Maybe just touch on what's the difference between those?
Speaker 1:two. So Pragma is what Siv and I started together. Okay, you know where we can. It was multifamily focused. It was our opportunity to build a portfolio for ourselves and actually bring on investors and do it for them as well.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Because we saw a lot of. We just saw the value of the real estate asset a multifamily asset compared to other types of real estate assets.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Expand wealth. I don't know if you want to talk about that or you want me to continue.
Speaker 3:No, no, please continue.
Speaker 1:So what we noticed was Pragma was going really well, still is going very well, but it caters to people who are bringing in upwards of half a million dollars. So the accessibility of it was something that we wanted to work on, because we had a lot of other people approaching us with smaller amounts that they wanted to invest, amounts that they wanted to invest Right, and so if we're doing, you know, an asset for Pragma, we're trying not to bring in like 20 different investors right, it'll be one or two large investors that we created. Expand wealth to make it accessible for everyone so that everyone can benefit from the value that multifamily investing brings.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, mr and Mrs, everybody has a chance to invest in real estate through this product, so at a smaller amount, which is great because it gives the opportunity to the regular people to start investing in real estate Exactly, and it's a smaller amount and people can also invest RRSPs, tfsas, because it's a real estate trust, it's a mutual fund trust structure.
Speaker 2:So people have a lot more options to invest as well, not just cash. Okay, that's great. Well, let's continue to our second question, and this one is directed to Sib. With your experience in negotiating multi-million dollar deals in the banking world, how do you now approach these negotiation tactics into the real estate space?
Speaker 3:I think that's a great question. You know, I did work on a lot of different projects and a lot of different deals. I've negotiated a few enterprise master agreements for a top five bank with some very large vendors, some deals upwards of $50 million with a specific vendor. So I learned a lot through that process, not only in negotiating the deals, but also from a vendor management space how to treat your trades, how to work with the vendors. So a few things that I learned is I learned is you have to get multiple quotes.
Speaker 3:So when we would do large deals, we would go through the RFP process where we would put our requirements in place in a lot of detail. It would be what do we require? So what we do with our deals, with our renovations, is we put our scope of work very clearly and we talk to a few different contractorsations. Is we put our scope of work very clearly and we and we talk to a few different uh contractors, for example, on that side of it, um, even negotiating on a price, for example, you know we use a lot of the facts. We don't. We don't use emotions right. So I learned from, from negotiating those deals, that uh, the the facts have to be very clear and you have to be reasonable in your negotiation as well. It has to be a win-win situation or else the deal is not going to work right. And so we use all those tactics right now, all those strategies right now, and I think the last piece of it is the contract.
Speaker 3:Whenever you're negotiating a deal, you know the contract. You have to really read it with a fine-tooth comb. You have to really understand all the clauses, because one word can make a lot of difference At the negotiating table with some of the larger companies. One word solely, for example. The word solely. If this is your sole decision, that word, we would spend half a day negotiating on that. One word right.
Speaker 2:So the smallest the sauce is in the smallest details.
Speaker 3:Exactly, exactly. So I think I did learn a lot. And from a just last thing is from a vendor management perspective. We deal with a lot of vendors and trades in real estate and you have to be very clear with the communication. You have to treat them with a lot of respect, even if things aren't going your way. You have to be respectful and you have to be able to see things from both sides of it your side and their side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you said, it's very similar. In the real estate space. You don't want to overlook due diligences clauses, because mistakes in real estate is not a couple hundred bucks, it could be very costly. So I could see the relation between the banking deals and now in the real estate that you brought over. Okay, well, I have a question now for Incia. Now, as someone who transitioned from teaching into investing, how has your passion for education influenced your approach to working with investors and tenants?
Speaker 1:So that's an interesting question. Okay, let me start with the investor side of it.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Education is a knowledge-based industry. So bringing that to investing, I think on both sides for ourselves foremost is to make sure that we're knowledgeable about any building that we're interested in, right in terms of choosing the market, um, underwriting the deal, doing all the due diligence around the deal, to making making sure that you know there's uh, the financing side of it will work. You know any changes in market it'll be able to. You know work any changes in market they'll be able to. You know work through the market cycle. So we want to make sure that you know, from our standpoint, we understand the product really well.
Speaker 1:The education side on the investor, we want to make sure they understand real estate investing. They understand all the risks, they understand all the benefits as well. And then there's sometimes people who approach us and they want to learn about it, you know. So we're happy to share the knowledge too. So both ways, you know, that's kind of how we approach it on the investor side, and I think with that too comes some accountability. So we take that seriously as well. And you know, as an educator, you're in it because you want to see the other person thrive. You're not really in it for yourself, right, it's because you want someone else to benefit and you want to be a facilitator in that process, and that's how we see this as well. We really want our investors to thrive, and so we make sure we do everything we can so that they do right.
Speaker 2:They are your partners, so you want to win together, yeah.
Speaker 1:And we try to approach everything has to be win-win for all parties involved. Yeah, so, yeah, that's a great way to put it. And you know, from the tenant side, we try to be mindful, I mean. So I mean going along with that win-win mentality. You know, we do increase value in the building by increase in rents, but we try to be careful on which buildings we're buying and which tenants can afford the increase in rent, right.
Speaker 1:So I'll give you an example there was a building in Ontario that we were looking at purchasing. The building when we did our walkthroughthrough, had a lot of seniors in the building, right. They looked very comfortable and we didn't feel like our model would fit that tenant profile and so we backed down from the offer. I'm sure the building did really well, but we try to be very careful about which buildings we're buying and who's in there, right. If they're younger people who are sort of more transitional, that might move in a few years. That's more what we're looking for, you know, and I'll give you one more example In one of the buildings that we do have we turned over the whole building except for one unit, and why? Because the gentleman in that unit is not well and um, you know that doesn't want to move right now, and we just let. We just said you know what stay there, be comfortable, don't worry about it, and that's it. We just let it be yeah right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:We try to bring that side of it to our tenants it's and what from both sides partner sides, uh, tenant sides, it's still, we're dealing with humans. You know it's not just transactions. There is personalities involved, there is emotions involved. So, from what I can understand, you guys do all that you can to satisfy all parties, you know, from the business side and from the tenant side. So this is great yeah.
Speaker 1:You know absolutely, but we do try to make sure that everybody is winning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, let's go to our fourth question. This one is the next two questions is geared towards both of you. Now you've built a real estate trust we talked about Expand Wealth and you manage assets across Canada. What systems or principles have been crucial for scaling successfully and and sustainably this, these, these projects?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll start and then I'll turn over to Ncia maybe. So you know, people there's. There's three things always like there's people, there's process and there's technology right, and the people side of it is always the hardest to get the right people in place. It's taken us a few years to get all the right teams in place, from the contractor teams to the property management teams, to all the different realtors that we deal with in order to acquire the off-market deals, things like that as well. So it's taken us years to get the people side of it right and we've sort of got a solid team. Now we call them our power team. So that's been fantastic and we have them in multiple cities across Canada.
Speaker 3:On the process side, I'm a process guy, like I've done some of the lean Six Sigma training as well, and the process side of it is critical because you want to be efficient, you want to be organized, and so whatever we do, we do it very methodically. We set up the process first and then we execute on that right. So whether it's tenant management, we use software. On the technology side, we use different software, like Mondaycom, for example. We use Excel, obviously for a lot of the modeling stuff.
Speaker 3:So we have a couple of different models in place. One is to analyze a deal very quickly, and then one is if we want to go place an offer, we'll put it through the bigger model, which shows you the 10-year pro forma and all the different metrics that we want to see. So we can run a deal in five minutes or a little bit longer than the bigger model. So the technology side of it is critical as well, and we use the tools like HubSpot and things like that as well, and then our property managers have their property management tools which we plug into as well, right? So so definitely, you're absolutely right. There are a lot of processes and people and technology that that go into creating the whole company.
Speaker 2:And this is you know we talked about scaling Without systems, without processes, you're going to reach a limit where you're going to either start going downhill or you know you're not going to be able to continue growing. Because these are key that you need to implement If you want to grow a portfolio, you need those systems, those processes.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and I think. One last thing I'll add, and it's not big news, but I do talk to a lot of people who don't do this, but from day one we've been paperless. So I talked to some people and they're like yeah, I'm not sure if I have that in hard copy or soft copy. I'll double check. But everything we do, even if it comes in hard copy, we scan it in and file it in soft copy and then we shred it, or sometimes, if you have to keep it, you keep it stored away, but everything is soft copy. So we're completely mobile and it's all backed up and things like that as well.
Speaker 2:Soft copy, so we're completely mobile and it's all backed up and things like that as well. That's great. You seem like you have something good going on over there, all right. Well, this is our fifth and final question for you. Today we talked about, you know, you created Expand Wealth and you opened it for a bigger pool of people to be able to invest in real estate, and some of those people might be new investors. So what are the most common myths that you hear about multifamily investing, and what truths do you wish more people would understand?
Speaker 1:so, um, one of the myths I would say is, um, that people sometimes approach real estate as if like it's for everyone, but it's still something you need to be well versed on. Um, it's one of those fields where I think you don't know what. You don't know right and um, you know, I was talking to sip earlier and I'm saying you know, if you, if you need surgery, you don't know, right. And you know, I was talking to Seb earlier and I'm saying you know, if you, if you need surgery, you're not going to watch a YouTube video and then try it yourself, right?
Speaker 1:But people tend to approach real estate that way, and so what we see oftentimes is people who are kind of doing it on the side, without education behind it. They're making a lot of mistakes which can be costly. They're losing their time, they're coming out after a long investment but they've done themselves either flat or negative, right, and you don't want to see people, you know. It's just unfortunate that there's no need for that, right. So you know, what we try to tell people is either invest the time that you need to do it really well or pair up with someone who can do it for you. You know, um.
Speaker 2:So one of those myths that that's what I see, right, that you know it's for everyone, but that means people think it to be that okay, well, I can do it too, but you can't unless you you educate yourself really well it's true, it it seems like, when I think about it, a lot of people say, oh well, my aunt or my uncle or my father did it, you know, bought a couple of houses and they think that this is being an investor, which they're not wrong. But if you want to do it as a real real estate investor and do it as a business, there's something different to treat it as a business than buying a couple of properties and doing it on the fly, like we say.
Speaker 1:Exactly because when the market's going up, yeah, everyone's winning and everyone's a genius, but you know the market's got cycles. So if you're not able to withstand the dips or know how to take advantage of that, then you put yourself in a very precarious situation.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well, guys, this was a great conversation. Sib and Sia, thank you so much for being on the Five Questions podcast today. I hope our listeners will take a piece of your knowledge, of your advice, with them on their journey and I'm sure we'll be talking very soon again.
Speaker 3:Thanks, mario it was great seeing you again.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having us, mario. Thanks for tuning into the 5 Questions Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, like and hit the notification bell on our YouTube channel so you never miss an episode. Stay tuned for more insights and tips to transform your real estate and business game. See you next time.