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The 5 Questions Podcast
Join us as we unlock real estate and business insights, one question at a time.
The 5 Questions Podcast
Win-Win Real Estate: How Sibtain and Insiyah Make Everyone Profitable
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Sibtain and Insiyah share their journey from casual real estate investors to multifamily specialists, revealing how they've created accessible investment vehicles for both high-net-worth individuals and everyday investors.
• Started investing in real estate 20 years ago with single-family homes and condos, including international properties
• COVID served as a catalyst to transition from background interest to full-time multifamily investing
• Created Pragma Inc for larger investors ($500k+) and ExpandWealth Real Estate Fund for smaller investors
• Brought banking negotiation tactics to real estate, emphasizing detailed contracts and win-win relationships
• Apply educational background to ensure investors understand both benefits and risks
• Consider tenant profiles carefully when purchasing buildings, sometimes declining deals if existing tenants wouldn't fit their model
• Built systems around people (power teams), processes (methodical approaches), and technology (Monday.com, Excel models)
• Maintain a completely paperless operation for mobility and backup security
• Caution against DIY approaches to real estate without proper education
• Recommend either investing time in learning or partnering with experienced professionals
Connect with Sibtain and Insiyah:
www.expandwealthfund.com
Introduction to the Panju Power Couple
Speaker 1If you need surgery , you're not going to watch a YouTube video and then try it yourself , right , but people tend to approach real estate that way .
Speaker 2Welcome to the 5 Questions Podcast , where we unlock real estate and business insights one question at a time . Welcome to the 5 Questions Podcast . I am your host , mario Lamar . Our guests on today's show are a power couple , co-founders of Pragma Inc and Expand Wealth Real Estate Trust . With a combined background in education , psychology , finance and leadership , they are redefining what it means to build generational wealth through real estate . Welcome , insia and Sib Panju . Welcome to the show , guys .
Speaker 3Hey , Mario Glad to be here .
Speaker 1Yeah , we're excited to be here . Yeah , we're excited to be here .
Speaker 2Okay , guys , the concept of the podcast is real simple Five questions , either about business or real estate , and we get straight to the point . You ready .
Speaker 1We're ready ?
Speaker 2Okay , first question I have for you guys . Let's start at the beginning . How did your journey in real estate begin and what inspired you to co-found pragma Inc and then , uh , expand wealth ? Uh , all together and any , uh , maybe . Uh , both of you can tag team on this question .
Their Journey into Real Estate
Speaker 3Sounds good , sounds good . So , um , we started investing in real estate about 20 years ago . Um , you know , we were investing mainly in single family homes and things like that . Yeah , condos . Um , you know , we were investing mainly in single family homes and things like that , condos . Uh , we even invested , uh internationally , in dubai .
Speaker 3Um , so we've been investing in real estate . We had a couple of rental properties as well and , um , what happened was , uh , that we had two kids , life got busy . I was working downtown and ncaa was working as well , and sort of the tipping point was COVID , where we actually had time and we were sort of gearing up to invest more in real estate . At that time , anyway , we sort of knew that real estate is the way to go with the passive income and the appreciation . And when COVID hit , it was sort of the catalyst where we started investing more and got more into the multifamily space and we went sort of all in on that . And even before COVID , we were already educating ourselves and networking on the multifamily space , and I'll let Ancia sort of continue and add to that .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean he did cover a lot of it . It has been something that's always been a part of our lives , but always in the background , and I think Siv , I would have to say , was a lot more passionate about real estate , so he was the driving force behind it . I got my real estate license I don't know , maybe like 15 years ago now , and so you know , we were in , we're dabbling into real estate , but from different angles and I think , yeah , like you said , covid was was what brought it from the background right into the foreground and it became what was leading us now and then the job sort of faded out .
Speaker 2That's . That's a great , great story and great life journey . And it starts like that . I speak to a lot of people and sometimes in a couple , let's say you're doing it together . It's always one that leads and then the other one follows with the years . Let me ask you because in my question we named two companies , so Pragma Inc and Expand Wealth Maybe just touch on what's the difference between those ?
Speaker 1two . So Pragma is what Siv and I started together . Okay , you know where we can . It was multifamily focused . It was our opportunity to build a portfolio for ourselves and actually bring on investors and do it for them as well .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1Because we saw a lot of . We just saw the value of the real estate asset a multifamily asset compared to other types of real estate assets .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Expand wealth . I don't know if you want to talk about that or you want me to continue .
Speaker 3No , no , please continue .
Speaker 1So what we noticed was Pragma was going really well , still is going very well , but it caters to people who are bringing in upwards of half a million dollars . So the accessibility of it was something that we wanted to work on , because we had a lot of other people approaching us with smaller amounts that they wanted to invest , amounts that they wanted to invest Right , and so if we're doing , you know , an asset for Pragma , we're trying not to bring in like 20 different investors right , it'll be one or two large investors that we created . Expand wealth to make it accessible for everyone so that everyone can benefit from the value that multifamily investing brings .
Speaker 2Okay . So , mr and Mrs , everybody has a chance to invest in real estate through this product , so at a smaller amount , which is great because it gives the opportunity to the regular people to start investing in real estate Exactly , and it's a smaller amount and people can also invest RRSPs , tfsas , because it's a real estate trust , it's a mutual fund trust structure .
Speaker 2So people have a lot more options to invest as well , not just cash . Okay , that's great . Well , let's continue to our second question , and this one is directed
Banking Negotiation Skills in Real Estate
Speaker 2to Sib . With your experience in negotiating multi-million dollar deals in the banking world , how do you now approach these negotiation tactics into the real estate space ?
Speaker 3I think that's a great question . You know , I did work on a lot of different projects and a lot of different deals . I've negotiated a few enterprise master agreements for a top five bank with some very large vendors , some deals upwards of $50 million with a specific vendor . So I learned a lot through that process , not only in negotiating the deals , but also from a vendor management space how to treat your trades , how to work with the vendors . So a few things that I learned is I learned is you have to get multiple quotes .
Speaker 3So when we would do large deals , we would go through the RFP process where we would put our requirements in place in a lot of detail . It would be what do we require ? So what we do with our deals , with our renovations , is we put our scope of work very clearly and we talk to a few different contractorsations . Is we put our scope of work very clearly and we and we talk to a few different uh contractors , for example , on that side of it , um , even negotiating on a price , for example , you know we use a lot of the facts . We don't . We don't use emotions right . So I learned from , from negotiating those deals , that uh , the the facts have to be very clear and you have to be reasonable in your negotiation as well . It has to be a win-win situation or else the deal is not going to work right . And so we use all those tactics right now , all those strategies right now , and I think the last piece of it is the contract .
Speaker 3Whenever you're negotiating a deal , you know the contract . You have to really read it with a fine-tooth comb . You have to really understand all the clauses , because one word can make a lot of difference At the negotiating table with some of the larger companies . One word solely , for example . The word solely . If this is your sole decision , that word , we would spend half a day negotiating on that . One word right .
Speaker 2So the smallest the sauce is in the smallest details .
Speaker 3Exactly , exactly . So I think I did learn a lot . And from a just last thing is from a vendor management perspective . We deal with a lot of vendors and trades in real estate and you have to be very clear with the communication . You have to treat them with a lot of respect , even if things aren't going your way . You have to be respectful and you have to be able to see things from both sides of it your side and their side .
Speaker 2Yeah , like you said , it's very similar . In the real estate space . You don't want to overlook due diligences clauses , because mistakes in real estate is not a couple hundred bucks , it could be very costly . So I could see the relation between the banking deals and now in the real estate that you brought over . Okay , well , I have a question now for Incia . Now , as someone who transitioned from teaching into investing , how has your passion for education influenced your approach to working with investors and tenants ?
Education's Influence on Investor Relations
Speaker 1So that's an interesting question . Okay , let me start with the investor side of it .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1Education is a knowledge-based industry . So bringing that to investing , I think on both sides for ourselves foremost is to make sure that we're knowledgeable about any building that we're interested in , right in terms of choosing the market , um , underwriting the deal , doing all the due diligence around the deal , to making making sure that you know there's uh , the financing side of it will work . You know any changes in market it'll be able to . You know work any changes in market they'll be able to . You know work through the market cycle . So we want to make sure that you know , from our standpoint , we understand the product really well .
Speaker 1The education side on the investor , we want to make sure they understand real estate investing . They understand all the risks , they understand all the benefits as well . And then there's sometimes people who approach us and they want to learn about it , you know . So we're happy to share the knowledge too . So both ways , you know , that's kind of how we approach it on the investor side , and I think with that too comes some accountability . So we take that seriously as well . And you know , as an educator , you're in it because you want to see the other person thrive . You're not really in it for yourself , right , it's because you want someone else to benefit and you want to be a facilitator in that process , and that's how we see this as well . We really want our investors to thrive , and so we make sure we do everything we can so that they do right .
Speaker 2They are your partners , so you want to win together , yeah .
Speaker 1And we try to approach everything has to be win-win for all parties involved . Yeah , so , yeah , that's a great way to put it . And you know , from the tenant side , we try to be mindful , I mean . So I mean going along with that win-win mentality . You know , we do increase value in the building by increase in rents , but we try to be careful on which buildings we're buying and which tenants can afford the increase in rent , right .
Speaker 1So I'll give you an example there was a building in Ontario that we were looking at purchasing . The building when we did our walkthroughthrough , had a lot of seniors in the building , right . They looked very comfortable and we didn't feel like our model would fit that tenant profile and so we backed down from the offer . I'm sure the building did really well , but we try to be very careful about which buildings we're buying and who's in there , right . If they're younger people who are sort of more transitional , that might move in a few years . That's more what we're looking for , you know , and I'll give you one more example In one of the buildings that we do have we turned over the whole building except for one unit , and why ? Because the gentleman in that unit is not well and um , you know that doesn't want to move right now , and we just let . We just said you know what stay there , be comfortable , don't worry about it , and that's it . We just let it be yeah right .
Speaker 1So yeah , that's .
Speaker 2We try to bring that side of it to our tenants it's and what from both sides partner sides , uh , tenant sides , it's still , we're dealing with humans . You know it's not just transactions . There is personalities involved , there is emotions involved . So , from what I can understand , you guys do all that you can to satisfy all parties , you know , from the business side and from the tenant side . So this is great yeah .
Speaker 1You know absolutely , but we do try to make sure that everybody is winning .
Speaker 2Yeah , well , let's go to our fourth question . This one is the next two questions is geared towards both of you . Now you've built a real estate trust we talked about Expand Wealth and you manage assets across Canada . What systems or principles have been crucial for scaling successfully and and sustainably this , these , these projects ?
Scaling Systems for Real Estate Success
Speaker 3Yeah , I'll start and then I'll turn over to Ncia maybe . So you know , people there's . There's three things always like there's people , there's process and there's technology right , and the people side of it is always the hardest to get the right people in place . It's taken us a few years to get all the right teams in place , from the contractor teams to the property management teams , to all the different realtors that we deal with in order to acquire the off-market deals , things like that as well . So it's taken us years to get the people side of it right and we've sort of got a solid team . Now we call them our power team . So that's been fantastic and we have them in multiple cities across Canada .
Speaker 3On the process side , I'm a process guy , like I've done some of the lean Six Sigma training as well , and the process side of it is critical because you want to be efficient , you want to be organized , and so whatever we do , we do it very methodically . We set up the process first and then we execute on that right . So whether it's tenant management , we use software . On the technology side , we use different software , like Mondaycom , for example . We use Excel , obviously for a lot of the modeling stuff .
Speaker 3So we have a couple of different models in place . One is to analyze a deal very quickly , and then one is if we want to go place an offer , we'll put it through the bigger model , which shows you the 10-year pro forma and all the different metrics that we want to see . So we can run a deal in five minutes or a little bit longer than the bigger model . So the technology side of it is critical as well , and we use the tools like HubSpot and things like that as well , and then our property managers have their property management tools which we plug into as well , right ? So so definitely , you're absolutely right . There are a lot of processes and people and technology that that go into creating the whole company .
Speaker 2And this is you know we talked about scaling Without systems , without processes , you're going to reach a limit where you're going to either start going downhill or you know you're not going to be able to continue growing . Because these are key that you need to implement If you want to grow a portfolio , you need those systems , those processes .
Speaker 3Exactly , and I think . One last thing I'll add , and it's not big news , but I do talk to a lot of people who don't do this , but from day one we've been paperless . So I talked to some people and they're like yeah , I'm not sure if I have that in hard copy or soft copy . I'll double check . But everything we do , even if it comes in hard copy , we scan it in and file it in soft copy and then we shred it , or sometimes , if you have to keep it , you keep it stored away , but everything is soft copy . So we're completely mobile and it's all backed up and things like that as well .
Speaker 2Soft copy , so we're completely mobile and it's all backed up and things like that as well . That's great . You seem like you have something good going on over there , all right . Well , this is our fifth and final question for you . Today we talked about , you know , you created Expand Wealth and you opened it for a bigger pool of people to be able to invest in real estate , and some of those people might be new investors . So what are the most common myths that you hear about multifamily investing , and what truths do you wish more people would understand ?
Debunking Multifamily Investment Myths
Speaker 1so , um , one of the myths I would say is , um , that people sometimes approach real estate as if like it's for everyone , but it's still something you need to be well versed on . Um , it's one of those fields where I think you don't know what . You don't know right and um , you know , I was talking to sip earlier and I'm saying you know , if you , if you need surgery , you don't know , right . And you know , I was talking to Seb earlier and I'm saying you know , if you , if you need surgery , you're not going to watch a YouTube video and then try it yourself , right ?
Speaker 1But people tend to approach real estate that way , and so what we see oftentimes is people who are kind of doing it on the side , without education behind it . They're making a lot of mistakes which can be costly . They're losing their time , they're coming out after a long investment but they've done themselves either flat or negative , right , and you don't want to see people , you know . It's just unfortunate that there's no need for that , right . So you know , what we try to tell people is either invest the time that you need to do it really well or pair up with someone who can do it for you . You know , um .
Speaker 2So one of those myths that that's what I see , right , that you know it's for everyone , but that means people think it to be that okay , well , I can do it too , but you can't unless you you educate yourself really well it's true , it it seems like , when I think about it , a lot of people say , oh well , my aunt or my uncle or my father did it , you know , bought a couple of houses and they think that this is being an investor , which they're not wrong . But if you want to do it as a real real estate investor and do it as a business , there's something different to treat it as a business than buying a couple of properties and doing it on the fly , like we say .
Speaker 1Exactly because when the market's going up , yeah , everyone's winning and everyone's a genius , but you know the market's got cycles . So if you're not able to withstand the dips or know how to take advantage of that , then you put yourself in a very precarious situation .
Speaker 2Absolutely Well , guys , this was a great conversation . Sib and Sia , thank you so much for being on the Five Questions podcast today . I hope our listeners will take a piece of your knowledge , of your advice , with them on their journey and I'm sure we'll be talking very soon again .
Speaker 3Thanks , mario it was great seeing you again .
Speaker 2Thanks for having us , mario . Thanks for tuning into the 5 Questions Podcast . If you enjoyed today's episode , don't forget to subscribe , like and hit the notification bell on our YouTube channel so you never miss an episode . Stay tuned for more insights and tips to transform your real estate and business game . See you next time .